Craig Vezina Interview with Andreas Schleicher, May 4, 2020

Craig Vezina: What do you think is the most important ingredient for a great education?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, I think the quality of education will never exceed the quality of teachers and teaching so the relational aspect I think is observably key to success. Education is less a transactional experience where you learn something and more a relational experience. I do believe that is the center of success in education.

Craig Vezina: Excellent. And based on your research and your tremendous experience in education what do you see as the greatest opportunity right now amidst this crisis for education?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, surly this crisis is deeply disrupting education and perhaps even our model of education. As a student you used to be spoonfed by a teacher, you’re going to have a hard time learning on your own. You won’t have the resilience, the learning strategies to actually set your own learning goals, to monitor your learning so you’ll be on your own. If as a teacher you saw your role as an instructor in a classroom with students in front of you rather than a coach, a mentor, a facilitator, an evaluator, well at this moment you have a hard time reaching your students, working with your students when being socially close when you’re physically apart. If it is as a school system you have been running a very kind of bureaucratic approach to education a very vertical kind of structure rather than having a culture of professional autonomy and collaboration you’re going to have a hard time at this moment. I think this crisis has deeply disrupted our way of educating, but at the very same time I think it has unleashed an enormous amount of very, very interesting and promising ideas for how we can educate and learn differently, how we can make sure that learning is not a place but an activity. It has unleashed new pedagogical ideas, new ways of working, I think it has brought kind of the social relational aspect of education to the forefront. On the one hand you can say well this crisis is amplifying inequality. I think that’s the really sad part of it. But for some learners for some teachers it’s been liberating and exciting in sort of showing forward new ways. And I’m pretty sure that when confinement is over you’re going to have students asking their teachers. I really found some really interesting ways of working, learning at home and some great resources, can’t we do that more in our classroom? And I’m sure you’re going to have teachers questioning the same thing. Why should I just deliver a kind of prefabricated curriculum rather than become a designer of innovative learning environments? I think we can find many in the school system who have used this opportunity or this moment to build a new kind of culture of education going back to the education administration and say well can’t we have a little bit more room for maneuver in our school. I think there will be something positive remaining from this crisis and obviously technology is another big part of this equation.

Craig Vezina: Yeah. If you were to think about some great examples or a story that you’ve heard of of students learning online admits this crisis in innovative ways do you have a story that you could share?

Andreas Schleicher: I don’t have any kind of personal stories, but I can see from our data that we have from our experience that there have been actually it’s not just the most isolated cases, it’s actually in some systems many students have been very actively engaged in new forms of learning. You can see when you look at the take up of online courses, when you look at the interactivity that is being established, but I don’t have any kind of personal story that comes to mind at this point.

Craig Vezina: Okay. And I think one of the questions that people maybe are thinking about in terms of what it looks like is how do we assess, what are some models for how we can assess the type of learning that’s happening right now? Which we know intuitively is very powerful but are there any objective ways or assessments processes that you think people are using that can work for this model?

Andreas Schleicher: Yeah. I think this crisis has not only disrupted learning processes, it’s also disrupted our ways of assessment and evaluation. Exams are not taking place, are being postponed, are being reused. I think what is highlighted is that we need to think about new forms of assessments. We need to become better at integrating the process of learning and assessment and helping also students use results of assessment to learn better and teachers to teach better and schools to become more effective. In the past assessment was taking time away from learning, it was edit at the end of the process. I think in the future we need to bring those processes of assessment and learning much closer together. If at this moment you’re learning on your own at home you need to have that immediate feedback, you need to have a very good sense of where you’re going. And again, I think technology-based learning provides for that. I mean there is now intelligent software for learning out there where if you study mathematics on a computer the computer will study you, the computer will figure out what you’re good out, what you’re not so good at, what you like, what you dislike, the kind of problems that you struggle with and so on. And then you can use that technology both to understand the different learning difficulties into the new space, but also adapt to the learning process. Again, the future of assessment is almost invisible. It’s basically an integral part of the learning process, it provides instant and immediate feedback for teachers to see where students have common misconceptions, I might have explained something not so well to students to understand their weaknesses. I actually think we do see very promising models of this emerging in this crisis.

Craig Vezina: Yeah, I’m very interested in this and I know that inequity is a huge obstacle to be overcome, but let’s say in an optimistic scenario if we were to leverage technology for learning in the horizon of the next five or ten years, I know there’s a lot of speculation in what will happen in five or ten years, but what would be the optimistic scenario about use cases with emerging technologies?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, if we just use technology to deliver our existing ways of education it will continue to amplify inequality. It’s basically matters of access, matters of delivery will sort of amplify existing inequality. But there is another scenario where actually technology will help teachers to understand how different students are learning differently and to engage with those differences in much more nuanced and diverse ways to personalize learning in entirely new ways. Technology is an amazing opportunity for education with special needs. Technology can actually adapt the learning process, assessment processes. So, in one way currently I think the realistic outcome is technology is exasperating inequality. Those who have access to computers, who can use them well, who have teachers who are very familiar at integrating technology and structural design are fine and those who are not are further behind. And that’s I think unfortunately what we see at the moment, but I do think technology holds the promise actually to level the playing field by personalizing learning a lot more. At the moment in a traditional classroom setting a lot of people are being left out of the equation because this kind of education for the average doesn’t reach them. That’s an issue that you can address with technology and again, I think there are very promising examples for more specialized tailored learning. I’ll give you an example, last November I was in Shanghai visiting a classroom where students were learning calligraphy and it’s a headache for teachers there, students have to learn 4000 characters in primary school, we struggle with 26 so I think you can imagine the kind of expectation that is on students and teachers. And it’s not just a technique, it’s also seen as an art. And then I asked myself when I visited that classroom so how are they going to use technology here? And you could see it in the classroom actually, the students were drawing their characters in very artful ways, but on their tables they had an integrated scanner and the scanner was recording in real time what they were doing and then they had their mobile phone on the desk and the mobile phone was giving them in real time feedback on the quality of their drawings based on pattern recognition and artificial intelligence. And the teacher could actually see also in real time how students were responding to different types of tasks and could intervene very personalized could also see patterns where students were making similar mistakes, you know. So, this is an area where you can see technology becoming immersed in the ways of learning without becoming an obstacle to learn. And that’s I think again where you could actually address inequalities much better.

Craig Vezina:: And I love this idea of the best technologies are invisible technologies. I have a special interest in augmented reality and virtual reality. Just curious if you are seeing some interesting use cases or have some ideas on how these might be harnessed for powerful education?

Andreas Schleicher: In fact, in the context we are experimenting with augmented reality at this point for the purpose of assessment. But the area where this holds greatest promise in my view is actually in the area of technical career vocational education where you can actually allow people to go to a virtual laboratory and actually experiment, do an experiment rather than just listen to the results of an experiment. So, I think this kind of experiential learning is strengthened in the vocational field, you can do assessments, you can have people giving people real time information about practical things they will be doing. So, again, I think that’s a very promising field where you see this emerging. In the medical research this is very advanced in this, you can see that’s not school-based education or university-based education but I think the similar techniques could be deployed in school to make learning a lot more engaging and a lot more interesting, a lot more real. I think the problem today is think about science, if you serve primary grade students they’re all suggesting [ph] about science. Science is about discovering in nature, it’s about understanding cause-and-effect, it’s about experimenting and things like this. If you survey 15-year-olds many of them hate science because we have made it a boring school subject with formulas and equations, it has very little to do with the nature of scientific inquiry. Now, again, augmented reality is the tool to make that happen for not just a few students who go to very wealthy schools but for every student now.

Question: Yeah. And related to it is this question, which I think is especially important for schools in terms of breaking down the artificial world of school versus the “real world”. And I’m wondering if you have ideas of how schools might be part of the greater learning community in making it more authentic to the real world? I know this is something that schools and school leaders have been talking about and want to do, they might need some help in how it can be done well. I’m just curious if you have some ideas on that.

Andreas Schleicher: Well, actually I think you do find very good examples for this as well. If you go to Finland Dystonia you’ll find actually the school being the center of the community. It’s not just an instructional kind of center, it is a center that is closely linked to all social spheres and actually these countries have succeeded to make education kind of whole of society experience and integrated the world of schooling, the world of learning with the world around them. They build strong interconnections in learning experience. Students spent a fair bit of the time actually learning outside the classroom. So, I think there are very good models for this. In secondary education if you go to Switzerland, Germany, Austria you’ll find a lot of integration of the world of work and the world of learning. So, students will have a lot of experience working with real people on real problems that have real consequences rather than doing something in the classroom that is afterwards thrown in a bin. You make a mistake actually it has consequences, you have to sort of face those. So, there I think different forms of education have become very good at integrating the world with learning and I think it’s going to help students not only learn better, I think we all learn better in authentic context, but it’s making learning more interesting and engaging. I think the big problem that we have today is that particularly students who are disadvantaged learning is so abstract, so removed from their daily experience that they don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel. And again, if you come from a wealthy background your parents would tell you well that’s all nonsense but you have to be sure to get a good degree to get in a great university. If you don’t have that kind of educational expectations from your background school often doesn’t motivate people intrinsically. And I think integrating the real experiences and I think all what it takes us to be more creative in how we use the people, the spaces, the technology, the time more flexible.

Craig Vezina:: Yeah. And as you think about the future of learning and the future of work, what question is most on your mind right now?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, you know, the dilemma for education is that the kind of things that are easy to teach and also easy to test are precisely the kind of things that are also easy to digitize, to automate, to outsource. So, the kind of things that we have done best in schooling are losing fastest in relevance. In a way the industrial age taught us how to educate second class robots, you know, people who are really good at repeating what we tell them and that’s now completely taken over by artificial intelligence by technology. And in this time of artificial intelligence we haven’t yet figured out what makes us truly human, how do we complement not substitute the artificial intelligence that we created in our computers. I think that’s the biggest kind of issue that I see for the future of education. It’s not the how question, but obviously I think we have very promising examples and solutions to this. It’s the question, what is it that is going to make young people successful? What is it that’s going to help people to become imaginative, creative, to build things of intrinsic positive ways? What is it that’s going to help young people to navigate ambiguity? Manage complexity? Manage tensions and dilemmas? Resolve conflicts? See the world through different lenses and perspectives? Appreciate other ways of thinking, other ways of working, other cultures? What is it that’s going to help the young people to mobilize their cognitive social and emotional resources, to take action, to take responsibility, personal responsibilities, social responsibility? I think those are the big questions that are in front of us is the what in education that is actually surprisingly little talked about.

Craig Vezina: Yeah. I think you captured it there and if you were to think about what is the greatest superpower sort of human superpower that an individual could have going forward, you can choose just one, what would you choose?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, if you are capable of thinking for yourself and work with others you will be very successful. The past was about reading, math and science. They are still important, but the future is about agency, being able to do something, identity and purpose. I think we’ve got to do better on those kinds of qualities.

Craig Vezina: Yeah. In terms of future thinking, which you could argue is important critical literacy right now given the speed of change, is there a way to learn to be a futures thinker or to better prepare yourself for things that we really can’t anticipate today but nonetheless to try to just project ahead?

Andreas Schleicher: Yeah, you know, our school systems are very good to transmit the established wisdom of our times to the next generation but they’re not yet good enough to have young people question the established wisdom of our times. Now, is just a matter of being open to new phenomena, not just to learn things but also to unlearn and relearn them when the context changes? Now, we are all sort of entrenched in habits and ways of thinking, we see the world through specific lenses that we have been taught and when the context changes sometimes you need to take a fresh look, to see the emerging future, to see the difference. I think that’s very hard for young people who have been trained that there’s one correct answer to every question. And I think if we create more openness in our education systems and that means giving young people more room to experiment, to try and that means helping them to cope with failure, to learn from experience, to become more socially cognitively resilient. I think then I think we’ll have a chance to educate people who will be more open to novelty.

Question: Yeah. And as much of your work is focused on research of important questions is there a particular area of research you’re involved in now or that you would like to be focused on in the future that you think is especially important to help us understand a particular area?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, I would point to an area of research where I’m very weak and my organization is not very strong and that’s actually neuroscience. I do think we have now for the first time the opportunity to move from doing large scale experiments, understanding through observation, which is where I’m very strong, doing assessments, evaluations to understand how the brain learns and to integrate the research about the brain with our science of learning. And I do think this is an area where I wish we would advance faster. This sort of moving from a kind of outside view of education to one that really helps in scientific terms to understand. We often see education as an art and I think it is an art, but it needs to become also more of a science and that’s the area where I think research is very much needed.

Craig Vezina: Absolutely. If there was a question that I haven’t asked but is important to speak to at this moment in your opinion, what would be the question and the message that you would like to give the general public?

Andreas Schleicher: We haven’t talked very much about teachers and teaching, the role of teachers. I think that’s something that could be important now.

Craig Vezina: Absolutely. So, let’s dig into that. What do you think is the most important role of teachers at this moment?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, if you look at the 2000s the last decade there has been actually a trend towards co-modifying education. Basically, students became consumers, parents became clients, teachers are seen as service providers and this has created a fair amount of distance between the players and education. And I do think when I look to the future I think we need to see that education is not about transaction, it’s really about relationship and that learning takes place when teachers go beyond transmitting knowledge and content towards understanding not only their subject and how different students learn that subject differently, but also to understand their students, who those people are, what their own ideas are and engaging with them. I think that’s where the future of teaching really lies to build that kind of social fabric in a school. Many of the kind of instructional elements probably technology is going to take over. If we think about as a teacher you’re going to have a hard time to compete with a very kind of nuanced and adaptive learning experience that the technology can provide. But I think you have a great, great value to this by creating an environment in which students develop identity, in which they develop agency to actually learn on their own and take responsibility. I think there’s a lot you can do as a teacher to actually help young people to become individuals [ph]. And that’s I think something that I hope to see more of in the future. I think it means that the teacher of the future will probably teach less but perhaps work more but actually spend more time with students out of the classroom, spend more time with colleagues to do collaborative research, professional development, spend more time on the design of modern learning environments and think about how different students learn. And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges. We have created a very industrial work organization for education where we thought one minister can decide what millions of students learn and we create textbooks and an instructional system and ask teachers to deliver them. And that model really has broken down, in the future we need to not push ideas into the classroom but look for the best ideas and try to find ways to scale them, to spread them and to build that kind of social fabric between relationship between students and teachers, relationships between teachers and also create a school system in a sense that schools will remain closely connected.

Craig Vezina: And thinking about the model and the recipe of what goes into a great education, how important do you think joy is, joy or even fun in a great education?

Andreas Schleicher: Well, I think we all learn with joy and I think - I mean learning is also hard work. I think students need to understand that actually to experience joy it requires effort, it requires persistence, it requires resilience. But I do think that educators, school systems who cannot create an atmosphere of joy, of experience, of agency where students can sort of say they succeed after trying I think they’re going to have a very hard time. I think we need to see joy as an integral part of learning and success in education.

Craig Vezina: And maybe this would be a last question, how optimistic are you that we will emerge from this crisis, which is also an opportunity, in education with a much more forward thinking model? And I know that’s a very broad question but are you optimistic that this ultimately could be an important moment for education globally?

Andreas Schleicher: Surely for individual students and schools you will see that. I think you will have some who will have experienced a lot more room for maneuver for creativity and experience new forms of learning that are going to be very central. I’m not so convinced for systems. I think we are going to, for a long time, struggle with inequalities, with the kind of publication of inequalities that have been created. I worry for the resources, you know, our societies often prioritize the urgent over the important and in the next years when public money is going to be short education will struggle. And so, I think there’s going to be many elements that will be coming out of this in very innovative ways, but when I think about the whole system I think we have to work hard to make it work.